What’s the best (and worst) value KrisFlyer redemption?

How many real-world miles will your KrisFlyer miles fly you? Here's which destinations give you the most bang for your buck.

Which KrisFlyer redemption offers the best value?

It’s an intriguing question that warrants further analysis, especially for those looking to get the most bang for their buck. At the same time, it could get out of hand very quickly, since KrisFlyer redemptions don’t have to be just for Singapore Airlines- miles can also be redeemed for its 25 Star Alliance partners, Alaska Airlines, Virgin Australia, Virgin Atlantic, and Vistara. 

But assuming we limited our scope to just Singapore Airlines, could we derive some heuristic to see where the sweet spots lie?

We sure can. All we need is some data. 

Methodology

Such data. So analysis

While I’m sure there’s a more sophisticated way of going about this, I’m all about quick and dirty. So here’s how I’m determining which redemption represents the best value:

  1. I first obtained the mileage required for a one-way Saver award in Economy, Premium Economy, Business, and First Class between Singapore and each Singapore Airlines destination
  2. Then, using GCmap, I plotted the one-way distance between Singapore Changi and each of these destinations, taking into account stopovers where necessary (e.g. Singapore to Houston flies via Manchester)
  3. Finally, I divided the values obtained in (1) by the values obtained in (2)
❓ What about flights with more than one routing?

There’s two options for getting to JFK and LAX: the non-stop flights, or the one-stop ones.

Since the non-stop flights only have two cabins (Premium Economy and Business), I chose the one-stop flights via Frankfurt (JFK) and Tokyo Narita (LAX), and adjusted the distances accordingly.

The key question is:

For every mile I fly in real life, how many KrisFlyer miles do I pay?

The lower the figure, the better, obviously. 

Admittedly, this might not be the most robust way of approaching things if we’re interested in monetary value, because the lack of competition on certain routes can make the price per mile flown frightfully expensive (and thereby represent better value for miles redemptions in the traditional sense of the word).

So your options are (1) accept this as a fun piece of analysis for a weekend read, (2) be pedantic in the comments, (3) be pedantic in the comments AND send me a nicely formatted Excel file with the min-max airfares for each route (my preferred option).

In other words, we’re not looking at how much money each KrisFlyer mile gets you, we’re looking at how many miles Singapore Airlines will fly you in the real world for each KrisFlyer mile redeemed.

Here’s the tl;dr:

✈️ Best & Worst KrisFlyer Redemptions
(by KrisFlyer miles to real-world miles)

Cabin 👍 Best Value 👎 Worst Value
Economy
(Avg: 9.9:1)
  • Houston (via MAN)
  • New York (via FRA)
  • Cape Town (via JNB)
  • Kuala Lumpur
  • Penang
  • Phuket
Premium Economy
(Avg: 10.8:1)
  • Cape Town (via JNB)
  • Houston (via MAN)
  • New York (via FRA)
  • Hong Kong
  • Adelaide
  • Shanghai
Business
(Avg: 20.9:1)
  • Cape Town (via JNB)
  • Houston (via MAN)
  • Istanbul
  • Kuala Lumpur
  • Penang
  • Medan
First/Suites
(Avg: 24.6:1)
  • New York (via FRA)
  • Los Angeles (via NRT)
  • London
  • Jakarta
  • Hong Kong
  • Melbourne

Economy Class

For Economy Class redemptions, you’ll pay on average 9.9 KrisFlyer miles per 1 real-world mile flown.

✈️ Economy Class Redemptions
Destination Real-World Miles KrisFlyer Miles Ratio
Houston (via MAN) 11,523 44,000 3.82
New York (via FRA) 10,245 44,000 4.29
Cape Town (via JNB) 6,171 29,000 4.70
Los Angeles (via NRT) 8,775 42,000 4.79
San Francisco 8,446 42,000 4.97
Seattle 8,070 42,000 5.20
Vancouver 7,967 42,000 5.27
Istanbul 5,393 29,000 5.38
Johannesburg 5,382 29,000 5.39
Auckland 5,225 30,500 5.84
Christchurch 5,221 30,500 5.84
Barcelona (via MXP) 6,856 42,000 6.13
Manchester 6,810 42,000 6.17
London 6,765 42,000 6.21
Paris 6,666 42,000 6.30
Amsterdam 6,534 42,000 6.43
Milan 6,408 42,000 6.55
Zurich 6,405 42,000 6.56
Frankfurt 6,389 42,000 6.57
Munich 6,251 42,000 6.72
Rome 6,248 42,000 6.72
Copenhagen 6,193 42,000 6.78
Beijing 2,780 21,500 7.73
Ahmedabad 2,580 20,000 7.75
Delhi 2,579 20,000 7.75
Sydney 3,908 30,500 7.80
Dubai 3,633 29,000 7.98
Brisbane 3,816 30,500 7.99
Tokyo (Narita) 3,324 27,000 8.12
Melbourne 3,744 30,500 8.15
Bali 1,037 8,500 8.20
Chengdu 2,010 16,500 8.21
Tokyo (Haneda) 3,288 27,000 8.21
Mumbai 2,435 20,000 8.21
Taipei 1,996 16,500 8.27
Chongqing 1,958 16,500 8.43
Nagoya 3,127 27,000 8.63
Davao 1,545 13,500 8.74
Perth 2,421 21,500 8.88
Osaka 3,040 27,000 8.88
Xiamen 1,853 16,500 8.90
Cebu 1,505 13,500 8.97
Adelaide 3,351 30,500 9.10
Shanghai 2,357 21,500 9.12
Kathmandu 2,191 20,000 9.13
Manila 1,474 13,500 9.16
Seoul 2,867 27,000 9.42
Male 2,113 20,000 9.47
Busan 2,827 27,000 9.55
Fukuoka 2,802 27,000 9.64
Cairns 3,112 30,500 9.80
Hanoi 1,371 13,500 9.85
Surabaya 854 8,500 9.95
Cochin 1,990 20,000 10.05
Guangzhou 1,639 16,500 10.07
Bengaluru 1,975 20,000 10.13
Shenzhen 1,605 16,500 10.28
Darwin 2,075 21,500 10.36
Hong Kong 1,587 16,500 10.40
Brunei 795 8,500 10.69
Chennai 1,816 20,000 11.01
Kolkata 1,798 20,000 11.12
Dhaka 1,794 20,000 11.15
Yangon 1,195 13,500 11.30
Colombo 1,709 20,000 11.70
Hyderabad 2,053 25,000 12.18
Da Nang 1,049 13,500 12.87
Bangkok 876 13,500 15.41
Jakarta 546 8,500 15.57
Siem Reap 828 13,500 16.30
Phnom Penh 703 13,500 19.20
Ho Chi Minh 675 13,500 20.00
Medan 386 8,500 22.02
Phuket 607 13,500 22.24
Penang 373 8,500 22.79
Kuala Lumpur 184 8,500 46.20

The three best value redemptions are, unsurprisingly, some of Singapore Airlines’ longest routes:

  • Houston (stopover in Manchester): 3.82 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile
  • New York (stopover in Frankfurt): 4.29 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile
  • Cape Town (stopover in Johannesburg): 4.70 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile

Houston and New York in particular cover more than 10,000 miles, and while that’s a soul-crushing distance to be sitting in an Economy Class seat, at least you can comfort yourself with the knowledge that you’re paying a mere ~4 KrisFlyer miles for every real-world mile flown- the best value in the whole programme!

On the other extreme, short-haul destinations represent the worst value:

  • Kuala Lumpur: 46.20 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile
  • Penang: 22.79 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile 
  • Phuket: 22.24 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile

Kuala Lumpur is particularly poor value, with members paying 46 KrisFlyer miles for every 1 mile flown. For perspective, that’s more than you’d pay for First Class to every destination except Jakarta!

Truth be told, there’s very little reason to redeem miles for short-haul Economy. You’d be much better off buying a cheap budget ticket, which gives you a free choice of dates and timings. 

Premium Economy Class

For Premium Economy Class redemptions, you’ll pay on average 10.8 KrisFlyer miles per 1 real-world mile flown.

✈️ Premium Economy Class Redemptions
Destination Miles KrisFlyer Ratio
Cape Town (via JNB) 6,171 43,000 6.97
Houston (via MAN) 11,523 80,500 6.99
New York (via FRA) 10,245 80,500 7.86
Istanbul 5,393 43,000 7.97
Johannesburg 5,382 43,000 7.99
Newark 9,534 80,500 8.44
Los Angeles (via NRT) 8,775 75,000 8.55
San Francisco 8,446 75,000 8.88
Seattle 8,070 75,000 9.29
Vancouver 7,967 75,000 9.41
Auckland 5,225 51,000 9.76
Christchurch 5,221 51,000 9.77
Barcelona (via MXP) 6,856 71,000 10.36
Manchester 6,810 71,000 10.43
London 6,765 71,000 10.50
Paris 6,666 71,000 10.65
Amsterdam 6,534 71,000 10.87
Milan 6,408 71,000 11.08
Zurich 6,405 71,000 11.09
Frankfurt 6,389 71,000 11.11
Tokyo (Narita) 3,324 37,500 11.28
Munich 6,251 71,000 11.36
Rome 6,248 71,000 11.36
Tokyo (Haneda) 3,288 37,500 11.41
Copenhagen 6,193 71,000 11.46
Dubai 3,633 43,000 11.84
Beijing 2,780 34,500 12.41
Sydney 3,908 51,000 13.05
Seoul 2,867 37,500 13.08
Delhi 2,579 34,500 13.38
Melbourne 3,744 51,000 13.62
Mumbai 2,435 34,500 14.17
Shanghai 2,357 34,500 14.64
Hong Kong 1,587 26,500 16.70

The three best value redemptions here are:

  • Cape Town (stopover in Johannesburg): 6.97 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile
  • Houston (stopover in Manchester): 6.99 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile
  • New York (stopover in Frankfurt): 7.86 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile

It’s the same three from the Economy Class list, only with Cape Town replacing Los Angeles as the best value option. Even though it’s “only” 6,171 miles in flying distance (30% shorter than Los Angeles), it’s the beneficiary of KrisFlyer’s Zone 10 sweet spot, where Premium Economy awards are 43% cheaper than Los Angeles.

The three worst redemptions are: 

  • Hong Kong: 16.70 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile
  • Shanghai: 14.64 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile
  • Mumbai: 14.17 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile

These are the shortest routes where Premium Economy is offered, and if you really need that extra bit of comfort, you might be better off buying Economy and hoping the opportunity to buy an instant upgrade comes along.

Business Class

For Business Class redemptions, you’ll pay on average 20.9 KrisFlyer miles per 1 real-world mile flown.

✈️ Business Class Redemptions
Destination Miles KrisFlyer Ratio
Cape Town (via JNB) 6,171 56,500 9.16
Houston (via MAN) 11,523 111,500 9.68
Istanbul 5,393 56,500 10.48
Johannesburg 5,382 56,500 10.50
New York (via FRA) 10,245 111,500 10.88
Newark 9,534 111,500 11.69
Los Angeles (via NRT) 8,775 107,000 12.19
San Francisco 8,446 107,000 12.67
Auckland 5,225 68,500 13.11
Christchurch 5,221 68,500 13.12
Seattle 8,070 107,000 13.26
Vancouver 7,967 107,000 13.43
Barcelona (via MXP) 6,856 103,500 15.10
Manchester 6,810 103,500 15.20
London 6,765 103,500 15.30
Beijing 2,780 43,000 15.47
Paris 6,666 103,500 15.53
Davao 1,545 24,000 15.53
Dubai 3,633 56,500 15.55
Tokyo (Narita) 3,324 52,000 15.64
Tokyo (Haneda) 3,288 52,000 15.82
Amsterdam 6,534 103,500 15.84
Cebu 1,505 24,000 15.95
Milan 6,408 103,500 16.15
Zurich 6,405 103,500 16.16
Frankfurt 6,389 103,500 16.20
Manila 1,474 24,000 16.28
Munich 6,251 103,500 16.56
Rome 6,248 103,500 16.57
Nagoya 3,127 52,000 16.63
Ahmedabad 2,580 43,000 16.67
Delhi 2,579 43,000 16.67
Copenhagen 6,193 103,500 16.71
Perth 2,421 40,500 16.73
Chengdu 2,010 34,000 16.92
Taipei 1,996 34,000 17.03
Osaka 3,040 52,000 17.11
Chongqing 1,958 34,000 17.36
Hanoi 1,371 24,000 17.51
Sydney 3,908 68,500 17.53
Mumbai 2,435 43,000 17.66
Brisbane 3,816 68,500 17.95
Seoul 2,867 52,000 18.14
Shanghai 2,357 43,000 18.24
Melbourne 3,744 68,500 18.30
Xiamen 1,853 34,000 18.35
Busan 2,827 52,000 18.39
Fukuoka 2,802 52,000 18.56
Darwin 2,075 40,500 19.52
Kathmandu 2,191 43,000 19.63
Yangon 1,195 24,000 20.08
Bali 1,037 21,000 20.25
Male 2,113 43,000 20.35
Adelaide 3,351 68,500 20.44
Guangzhou 1,639 34,000 20.74
Hyderabad 2,053 43,000 20.94
Shenzhen 1,605 34,000 21.18
Hong Kong 1,587 34,000 21.42
Cochin 1,990 43,000 21.61
Bengaluru 1,975 43,000 21.77
Cairns 3,112 68,500 22.01
Da Nang 1,049 24,000 22.88
Chennai 1,816 43,000 23.68
Kolkata 1,798 43,000 23.92
Dhaka 1,794 43,000 23.97
Surabaya 854 21,000 24.59
Colombo 1,709 43,000 25.16
Brunei 795 21,000 26.42
Bangkok 876 24,000 27.40
Siem Reap 828 24,000 28.99
Phnom Penh 703 24,000 34.14
Ho Chi Minh 675 24,000 35.56
Jakarta 546 21,000 38.46
Phuket 607 24,000 39.54
Medan 386 21,000 54.40
Penang 373 21,000 56.30
Kuala Lumpur 184 21,000 114.13

The three best value redemptions here are:

  • Cape Town (stopover in Johannesburg): 9.16 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile
  • Houston (stopover in Manchester): 9.68 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile
  • Istanbul: 10.48 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile

KrisFlyer’s Zone 10 sweet spot features heavily here, with both Cape Town and Istanbul included (and Johannesburg a very close 4th).

Despite real-world distances of 5,000-6,000 miles, Business Class awards cost just 56,500 miles each. Istanbul is virtually at Europe’s doorstep, and yet the cost of a Business Class award is 45% cheaper!

The three worst redemptions are:

  • Kuala Lumpur: 114.13 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile
  • Penang: 56.30 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile
  • Medan: 54.40 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile

Again, this ties into the idea that you shouldn’t redeem your miles for short-haul Business Class. I mean, what’s the point? It costs an arm and a leg, and the flight is over before you know it. There isn’t even a meal service for Kuala Lumpur; Business Class passengers get a plastic-wrapped sandwich. And at 114 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile, this is the highest cost KrisFlyer redemption across the entire network.

By the way, Singapore Airlines doesn’t stock champagne on its Medan, Penang or Kuala Lumpur routes. If that’s not reason enough to avoid Business Class, I don’t know what is!

Something’s missing. Something’s missing!

First Class

For First Class redemptions, you’ll pay on average of 24.6 KrisFlyer miles per 1 real-world mile flown.

✈️ First Class Redemptions
Destination Miles KrisFlyer Ratio
New York (via FRA) 10,245 148,500 14.49
Los Angeles (via NRT) 8,775 146,500 16.70
London 6,765 141,000 20.84
Paris 6,666 141,000 21.15
Zurich 6,405 141,000 22.01
Frankfurt 6,389 141,000 22.07
Delhi 2,579 58,500 22.68
Tokyo (Narita) 3,324 77,000 23.16
Tokyo (Haneda) 3,288 77,000 23.42
Sydney 3,908 93,500 23.93
Mumbai 2,435 58,500 24.02
Shanghai 2,357 58,500 24.82
Melbourne 3,744 93,500 24.97
Hong Kong 1,587 45,000 28.36
Jakarta 546 30,500 55.86

The three best value redemptions here are:

  • New York (stopover in Frankfurt): 14.49 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile
  • Los Angeles (stopover in Tokyo Narita): 16.70 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile
  • London: 20.84 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile

Given the limited deployment of First Class, the names here are quite different compared to previous sections. Who would have thought that Singapore Airlines’ priciest redemption, New York JFK, would also be its best value? But with more than 10,000 miles flown, you really get a lot of time to enjoy that Suite (sadly it’ll be downgraded to a regular First Class seat from 15 May 2023, as the aircraft gets swapped to a B777-300ER). 

London is also surprisingly good value (though 3rd place would actually go to Auckland, had it not lost First Class service from 26 March), but if you’re coming back to Singapore, I’d advise you to fly from Paris instead. London has infamously high airport taxes thanks to its Air Passenger Duty, which costs £200 (~S$335) per First Class passenger. 

The three worst value redemptions are:

  • Jakarta: 55.86 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile
  • Hong Kong: 28.36 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile
  • Melbourne: 24.97 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile

Melbourne is an interesting one, but when you examine the numbers you see the difference is marginal; it could just as well have been Shanghai, Mumbai or Sydney. With a flight time of 7h 30 minutes, you might not have enough time to fully appreciate the experience- especially if you take a red-eye flight.

As for Hong Kong and Jakarta, well, I’ll say they’re not good redemption ideas if all you do is fly. But as I’ll cover in the next section, there could still be good reasons to take a punt on these!

Limitations

It’s important to note that not all miles are equal. 

What I mean by this is that the quality of a real-world mile can differ tremendously depending on cabin product. For example, Singapore to Kathmandu in Business Class has a ratio of 19.63. This is lower than Singapore to Adelaide in Business Class at 20.44, suggesting better value. 

However, Kathmandu is operated by the absolute worse aircraft in the Singapore Airlines fleet: the B737-800 (or at least it was until recently; I believe the MAX is now rostered).

Singapore Airlines B737-800 Business Class

These feature recliner seats in Business Class, first introduced in 2014 and well beyond their prime. Seat controls are entirely manual, lumbar support is saggy, there’s no privacy to speak of, and forget about Wi-Fi or seatback inflight entertainment.

In contrast, Adelaide is operated by A350-900 Medium Haul aircraft, which have Singapore Airlines’ 2018 Regional Business Class seat.

2018 Regional Business Class seat (as seen on an B787-10)

While it’s not as wide as some of Singapore Airlines’ other Business Class seats, this is actually my favourite Business Class seat in the entire fleet. I love that it reclines to flat without needing to flip, is friendly to back-sleepers, and offers good privacy.

Second, where First Class is concerned, a short-haul flight can still be good value if your pre-flight game is strong enough! Take Jakarta, for instance. At 56 KrisFlyer miles per real-world mile, it sounds like a terrible deal. And it would be, if all you did was take the flight. 

Singapore to Jakarta- the best way to visit The Private Room?

But a First Class flight to Jakarta gets you a golden ticket (quite literally) to The Private Room at Changi Terminal 3.

The Private Room
The Private Room
The Private Room
The Private Room

This exclusive lounge for Singapore Airlines First Class passengers offers a fine-dining experience, serving up restaurant-quality food and fine wines (Taittinger Comtes de Champagne, before you ask). 

The Private Room dining
The Private Room dining
The Private Room dining

So even though the flight will be over in the blink of an eye, those who can make time to enjoy the lounge beforehand can still come out on top.

Conclusion

It should be no surprise that the worst value KrisFlyer redemptions tend to be the shortest flights, and the best value KrisFlyer redemptions the longest. However, it’s not a hard and fast rule, thanks to the great Zone 10 sweet spot for travel between Singapore and Middle East/Africa.

Moreover, we shouldn’t just look at the KrisFlyer miles to real-world miles ratio, especially when there’s an opportunity to enjoy the lounge before the flight. It’s a completely rational decision (well, rational being relative) to redeem First Class to Jakarta if trying The Private Room is on your bucket list- perhaps even spend a whole day there, like some boliao people. 

Aaron Wong
Aaron Wong
Aaron founded The Milelion to help people travel better for less and impress chiobu. He was 50% successful.

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christ

amazing amount of work — and very useful to know, thanks

Alex

From memory – the A350 medium haul that flies to Adelaide does not have Premium Economy

Alex

I wish they flew a better plane here though 😭

QFFlyer

Good analysis, I think someone on FlyerTalk, or maybe HfP, has some a similar thing with Avios, and it’s all quite interesting.

Good to see London high up the list and Melbourne in the middle, not achieving best value but also not worst (they are my main route, plus HKG, which I usually use Avios or QF points for).

KL I would never use SQ miles for, I’d rather fly MH or 3K given the price, and again Avios or QF are a half decent option (for me anyway, everyone’s mileage (pun intended) may vary).

Alvin

How early can you go into the private room for a first class flight?

Zezima

For SQ flights – Yes, they will allow you into the airside 24 hours before flight departure. Here is my experience on my recent Japan trip on April last month on SQ Business Class. (BTW it’s my very first business class flight experience of my lifetime!) My flight departure is 2355 HRS, and I checked-in and entered airside at 0820 HRS in the morning (15 hours). I had both lunch and dinner at T3 SilverKris lounge as a result of the early check in. I also noticed recently that at the T3 departure immigration hall, boarding pass checks are now… Read more »

Last edited 1 year ago by Zezima
Zezima

Yes indeed! Book the cook lobster thermidor is always the rite of passage for first timers like myself! 😀

Thanks to your travel hack tips, this dream trip on business class have made it possible for me!

FYI: My travel hacking journey started as a result of this article:
https://milelion.com/2017/06/03/everything-wrong-with-motherships-sponsored-uob-krisflyer-post/

Last edited 1 year ago by Zezima
Alvin

Thanks! Doing my first Private Room experience, so thinking how much time we can have inside

Xin

Glad I’ve the privilege of taking the worst cabin in SQ this summer , headed to Kathmandu from Singapore. Maybe I’ll review it

Abc

I have found that post covid my approach has changed. Initially in that ramping up period where people were still hesitant to fly, redemptions were obtainable (even non stop NYC on spontaneous escapes) and reasonably priced regional Y fares around. After that though it has been very different – J saver redemptions absurd, full service Y fares quite high making LCC fares a bit more reasonable. On top of that, SQ increasing mile costs and SQs extreme stopover changes (I say extreme because to me stopping paid stopovers was weird – just restricting stopovers to 30 days would’ve sufficed to… Read more »

Bruno

Best value First/Suites redemption to me is A380 SIN-DEL/BOM. The 5 hours flight time is sufficient to get a full meal and experience the bed. Mileage cost is reasonable at 58K, which is less than half the SG-Europe rate. Also quite easy to find saver availability from 30-60 days before departure, which isn’t the case to Europe. It’s less than double the SIN-CGK cost, while the distance is much further. Can even do CGK-SIN-DEL for the same mileage cost as SIN-DEL and experience both the 77W First and A380 Suites that way. Unfortunately only max 24h stopover allowed in SG… Read more »

JT

hey MileLion, Thanks for this analysis. Apologies if this sounds pedantic but I suppose you took the direct average across all flights to arrive at the numbers you did. Another way to consider this is to look at the weighted average instead (i.e. weighted with respect to the sum of miles across all flights). This is probably a fairer representation of the overall ratio across the board. In this sense, the ratios modulate to 10.1 (Economy); 16.0 (Business) and 21.0 (First). The overall placements between the classes do not change but the ratio relatives become less pronounced. In any case,… Read more »

Susanne

What an awesome list, thanks so much to putting in all the work and time to make the lists!

Lifshitz

If you actually care about KF vs butt-in-seat, nothing beats Hanoi-Denpasar via Singapore.

But honestly I think this is a really poor metric. Loads of advantages of full fare carriers over LCCs. Especially when you looks at scoots insane pricing these days (and no, not to keen on Vietjetair). Especially as soon as you have *G or higher, Y redemptions become excellent value

Malcolm Kee

Actual miles field for Biz class Barcelona via MXP is inaccurate. Calculation seems to follow the other fare classes of 6856(?) instead of 6776 as shown. Can compare to the next two Europe destinations.

Would provide a SS but seems like Web channels don’t allow, only possible via tele.

The MileLion

excellent spot. have fixed that- it should be 6,856.